Can't Shift in Motion

[Ray Cadorin]

91 Ply Laser RS.  While driving, can't shift gears.  Shifter locks badly.  After coasting to the side of the road and turning the engine off, and jiggling the stick, it seems to break free.  With the engine off we can shift through all the gears.  With the engine running (usually while the car is in motion) the shifter locks up again.
The engine has shuttered on ocasion, almost like the clutch doesn't disengage.  We have lots of fluid in the hydrolic clutch system, and the slave cylinder does move when the pedal is depressed.  Under the hood, I can jiggle the shift lever and the selector lever and again it breaks free.  Feels fine when I move these levers under the hood (clutch depressed).  It's not consistent, we have driven the car over 30 Km and all seemed OK, then it happened again.  When it works, the gears feel normal and the shift is almost the same, maybe a little stiffer, but generally OK.  The Tranie may have be low on oil, I added over 2 liters (I know the manual sys 1.8 Liters).  So, do I need a new tranie.

I read Alex Nazars post, it's similar but different.

[Michael Cummings]

maybe your tranny fluid is crappy? what kinda stuff did you put in...if its too thick than your shifting will suck big time
i dunno just a thought

[Andrew Steele]

When you have it in gear, and the car is running (idle, stationary, e-brake on and clutch in), slowly let go of the clutch and find out where the clutch appears to engage/disengage.  Near the top? Near the bottom? In-between?

What I'm thinkin,is that perhaps your pressure plate has some broken fingers, and when you depress the clutch, you're not releasing all the pressure from the pressure plate, so your input shaft is still moving - at a reduced rate, of course.  The fact that you can shift and such just fine when you're stationary and that fact that it's not consistant would support this theory.

The other idea, is that the slave cyl isn't pushing the shift-fork far enough, and you're not putting enough pressure on the pressure plate to release the clutch and stop the input shaft from spinning.

Do you get any grinding? Or does it just feel like the shifter is stuck?  The gear selector could be damaged ... but I'm not too knowledgeable on the interior runnings of the transmission itself.

Worst case, you could take the car to L&R or Kinetic or TopEnd Auto ... all 3 of them are reputable DSM shops.

Good luck!

Andrew

[Ray Cadorin]

When you have it in gear, and the car is running (idle, stationary, e-brake on and clutch in), slowly let go of the clutch and find out where the clutch appears to engage/disengage.  Near the top? Near the bottom? In-between?

OK when I get back at the car I'll give it a try

What I'm thinkin,is that perhaps your pressure plate has some broken fingers, and when you depress the clutch, you're not releasing all the pressure from the pressure plate, so your input shaft is still moving - at a reduced rate, of course.  The fact that you can shift and such just fine when you're stationary and that fact that it's not consistant would support this theory.

The other idea, is that the slave cyl isn't pushing the shift-fork far enough, and you're not putting enough pressure on the pressure plate to release the clutch and stop the input shaft from spinning.

The manual doesn't say how far the cylinder is supposed to travel

Do you get any grinding? Or does it just feel like the shifter is stuck?
 
No grinding, feels like the shifter is frozen, well frozen out of the gear postion, moves nicely around the neutral position.
The gear selector could be damaged ... but I'm not too knowledgeable on the interior runnings of the transmission itself.

I though I could put the car into third or fourth, and try pushing it by hand (with the clutch down) if it's hard to push would that not indicate that the engine is still attached
I used GL5 gear oil(I know the book says GL4 ) it's only slightly thicker, but after putting it in, we could drive the car home, and the nearest auto supply store didn't have GL4
Worst case, you could take the car to L&R or Kinetic or TopEnd Auto ... all 3 of them are reputable DSM shops.

I'll look them up in the yellow pages
Good luck!

Andrew

[Andrew Steele]

Well, if the engine is still partially engaged and the input shaft is turning, it'll be harder to put it into gear for sure.  I've had this problem with all my trannies (at some point in time) when trying to get it into first while at a stop.  I usually put it into second then go into first and it works fine.  It's not all the time, and usually selecting another gear then going into first works.  I've noticed that if the car is still cold, it resists going into gear but if I gently push a lil harder, it'll go in and grind a bit.

I would recommend draining your tranny fluid.  Take a look at it.  Does it look like oil, or silver polish?  The best combo we've found for our trannies is a mix of RedLine MTL and RedLine MT90.  Both can be found at Lordco or Mopac at approx $12/bottle(Litre).

Also, here's the websites for L&R Racing and Kinetic.

[Marty van den Bosch]

You used GL5 ?

That is bad for our trannies - eats synchros

The brass in our transmissions gets corroded by GL-5

[Ray Cadorin]

Well, if the engine is still partially engaged and the input shaft is turning, it'll be harder to put it into gear for sure.  I've had this problem with all my trannies (at some point in time) when trying to get it into first while at a stop.  I usually put it into second then go into first and it works fine.  It's not all the time, and usually selecting another gear then going into first works.  I've noticed that if the car is still cold, it resists going into gear but if I gently push a lil harder, it'll go in and grind a bit.

I would recommend draining your tranny fluid.  Take a look at it.  Does it look like oil, or silver polish?  The best combo we've found for our trannies is a mix of RedLine MTL and RedLine MT90.  Both can be found at Lordco or Mopac at approx $12/bottle(Litre).

Also, here's the websites for L&R Racing and Kinetic.

Great, Thanks for the links.

Just talked to my son.  He can start the car in neutral (clutch depressed) and the car idles fine.  He can't shift into any gears, at all.  Stopping the engine, forcing the shifter into any gear, and starting the car (clutch depressed, brake on) engine starts but shutters then stalls.  I guess your right, there is a clutch disengagement problem.  We'll check with the suggested DSM people in the next couple of days.
I'd dismantle it myself, except I've got my other sons Honda in the garage also under repair (heart transplant)

Thank-you again

[Leon Hui]

Are you sure the clutch is engaging?  Check the master and slave cylinders for leaks...

[Ray Cadorin]

Pretty sure the clutch is not totally   disengaging.  The resevoir is full and there are no signs of leakage anywhere.  As well I can see the hydrolic piston push the clutch fork when the peddle is depressed
Still haven't gotten to the car, still fighting with my other sons Honda.
Thanks for the comment though.

Ray

[Dan Harshey]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned blown synchos yet have they?? might be another possibility to look at, especially if the GL5 isn't suppose to be good in our trannies.
Dan

[Andrew Steele]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned blown synchos yet have they?? might be another possibility to look at, especially if the GL5 isn't suppose to be good in our trannies.
Dan

Doesn't explain why he can't start the car with it in gear and the clutch depressed.  This still feels/sounds like an engagement/disengagement issue.

[Ray Cadorin]

OK,  finnally have the car in my driveway.  Will drain the tranie oil and try the pricey stuff from Lordco, after removing the tranie and checking the clutch.  Might be a few days before I can remove the tranie, the Honda hasn't gone home yet.  The reason I used GL5 is that at a quick glance at Lordco, that's all I could find in Cloverdale.  The manual says to use GL4 or higher, I assumed GL5 was higher.  GL4 is rated SAE 75W-85W, if I'm correct the GL5 we used was rated SAE80W-90  (from the Castrol site).  This shouldn't make a differance beyond the shifting being harder.

[Ray Cadorin]

OK, for anyone following my progress.  I finally got the transmission off.    What happeneed was one of the springs in the center of the clutch disc broke in half and fell down into the diaphram spring preventing it from being pressed in to release the clutch.  A pain for sure, but all in all not to bad, no real damage that I can see.  The clutch had about 1mm  of lining left before the rivets.

[Andrew Steele]

Then in a sense, a blessing in disguise

Glad to hear things will be ok!

[Ray Cadorin]

What specifilly is this "REDLINE" product (s) that I should be using in the transmission, and if it's two different liquids, what is the mix ratio.  I've drained the GL5 out, but should I rinse the tranie with something before putting the Redline stuff in.  There is probably less than 30 Km on the tranie with the GL5 in it. :? Ray