Author Topic: Timing and AFR map  (Read 1427 times)

Offline Allen fong

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Timing and AFR map
« on: August 18, 2012, 08:59:07 pm »
Anything look obviously wrong or any advice?




« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 09:04:06 pm by Allen fong »
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline kevin derhouson

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 09:04:48 pm »
ya..you watched Jack and Jill
She lives.
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Offline Allen fong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 09:36:00 pm »
Actually i downloaded it but never watched it, funny thing i was thinking to myself who is going to comment of my desktop first!


Sorry you didn't win anything tho! ;D
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline Rob Armstrong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 10:25:53 pm »
Can't you MSG ceddy and get him to set up your maps?
I thought he did that.

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 10:57:09 pm »
I don't know what boost levels the load corresponds, but I would say the timing is too high from about 100-140 load roughly and from 5000 rpm and up roughly.

Using both my Jackal maps and my Mazdaspeed maps for a rough reference, I would lower the timing in those areas a few degrees.  That is when the engine is under the most stress and the most load is on the rods, bearings etc.  this is where cylinder pressures are really high and where boost normall hits really hard.

This is based on pump gas however. If you are on race fuel, that might be really nice.  Also, if the timing maps on this don't correspond with other tuning systems, sorry, I can't help in that case.

The AFR however, does look screwy from 120-200 load from about 4000rpm and up.  There is a serious lean hole here it appears to me.  It is much richer before that. Possibly too rich for optimal torque but safe enough.  Mid 12s are too lean at higher loads and rpm.  But again, if you are on race fuel, different story.

Also, I would work for a nicer transition from the mid 14's to 12's.  There is one thin line of 13's in there seperating idle from boost mapping.  yes, the car will run, but it won't be smooth, it won't make optimal torque or power and it will get shitty mileage needlessly.  Plus it may hesitate when it gets that huge dump of fuel before it needs it.  Or if it needs it there, it will be too lean just before the map richens up.

Again tho without knowing if the maps are the same as what I am used to, I may be just talking out my butt.

Oh and even if they are purely race fuel maps, the AFRs shouldn't be that rich(mid 10s) down so low in the load table, and then just jump up so quickly.  As well, the timing maps should steadily increase.  The engine needs more timing as the rpm increases not the other way around.  Both in just the simple physics of how the piston speed increases with rpm and with the fact that detonation is much more likely at mid range rpm than higher rpm.
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods

Offline Allen fong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 12:18:06 am »
I am running 20 psi on 94 and meth!

Boost starts to spool in at around 2500-3000 Rpm and about 5 psi in the 100 load area!  I hit 20 psi at 4300rpm and 220 load

At Wot i am running pretty close to 11.5 AFR the scale is all over the place just to keep it as close to 11.5 as possible.
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline kevin derhouson

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 12:20:15 am »
Actually i downloaded it but never watched it, funny thing i was thinking to myself who is going to comment of my desktop first!


Sorry you didn't win anything tho! ;D

i really tried to resist, but couldn't :\
She lives.
new build details ---> http://freetexthost.com/hgidu250ql
current awhp: 387

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 06:54:41 am »
ok, so I still think you need more timing up top, unless its knocking.  Engines need more timing as rpm increases normally.

And if your car is hitting 11.5:1 on those fuel maps, something is off in the calibration somewhere or the scale is screwy or something.  The only 11.5:1 maps are at very low rpm.

and I still say that it needs more smoothing and transitional tuning. Its just idle and boost, with very little in between.
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods

Offline Allen fong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 11:09:26 am »
Well this is the map i was using from ceddy shows what part of the map does what...my top area of 11.5 is never seen in a pull so it was just left 11.5, but i will make the transition smoother!


if i move the timing up any more in the 3000/170-200 area get knock. and since i am running stock engine aside from the cams, i've never ran past 6500 rpm so there hasn't been anytuning done past that!

I will adjust and go for a run and post back.
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline Allen fong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 12:26:18 pm »
Ok just to make sure Im on the right page timing increases as the RPM's increase but decrease as load increases correct?





This is my latest maps just ran them but AFR's didn't log! I did get 1-2 counts of knock at 4600 rpm @ 238 load I am at full boost by 4000 RPM @ 216 load  (21 psi )

I need to do another run and see if my afr's match my map Afr. But am i heading the right direction?
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 08:18:47 pm »
yes more timing for more rpm but less timing for more load.

It still looks low in the high rpm areas to me, but then again, these maps are for a car that I don't tune on so I don't know for sure.  My 1g maps(with 2g pistons so same compression, same fuel, methanol)climbs to about 21deg at full rpm on my highest load maps.  then agian, my mazdaspeed maps are closer to your maps.  very low indicated timing at high rpm and high load.

for the fuel map, I still don't see any match between what you are reporting(11.5:1) and what your map is targeting(12.0:1) in the WOT area.

I would say to get it where you are close, but then maybe have Lowell tune it on the dyno?
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods

Offline Allen fong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 09:26:06 pm »
Yeah map AFR map is showing lean at 12.0 to account for the meth! So on my regular tune without meth i shot for an 11.5 from 100 load all the way up. Then when i added meth i had to add air or remove fuel however you want to look at it. So at 12.0 afr and meth spraying i hit damn near 11.5 to redline!

yeah dyno tune will be next summer! however you never lean if you don't try!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 09:50:35 pm by Allen fong »
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline Rob Armstrong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 10:14:58 pm »
Learning tuneing is not a cheap school.
You may want to take it to Lowell and get him to do it then see what he did.
That way if you make any changes you can tune them in. Insted of trying this and trying that and POP. Shit maybe I shouldn't have done that.
Could possibly cost you more in the long run. After you pop your motor will you still try again to learn it?
I am not saying you can't do it. I hope you can as that's the way I will be tuning my 2g and will need help.

Offline Allen fong

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 11:30:36 pm »
Yup thats the plan, but i want to see how far off i am, and hey if she blows the 6 bolt goes in!
1993 1G AWD

SOLD:1998 Talon AWD E316G @ 25 psi, EVO 8 ECU with, HKS 272/272 cams, Walbro 255 + rewire, ACT 2100 with street disk, 3" exhaust no cat, Aeromotive FP regulator, EVO 3 Throttle Body, EVO 3 intake mani, 1000cc inj, GM 3bar map, PR FMIC, Aem Truboost, Aem Wideband, Devils Own Meth on progressive controller.

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Timing and AFR map
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2012, 06:15:02 pm »
hey if its not knocking, and its holding a steady AFR, then its ok.

Of course it won't be optimal, but it will be driveable.

I haven't had to add that much when the methanol sprays.  Usually only .1-.3 
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods