Help with some diagnostics!

[CamWeiss]

Okay, I usually wouldn't have too much of a problem researching and screwing around until I fix a problem... But I don't have the liberty of time! Moving in eight days and would like to have the car running properly!

Just completed a front case swap - All timing components were off the motor. As far as I know, and as far as I can tell, everything was assembled correctly (Otherwise I wouldn't have put it together!). Did the insertion test to ensure the rear balance shaft was in phase, and all the marks lined up. Checking timing when the car was together, at #1 tdc the cam marks match up and the crank pulley aligns with the mark - That is to say, I don't think the timing is screwed up! Or at least I hope not.

But the car won't run worth a damn. It will not idle or run below 1700ish rpm, just sputters and kills itself. It's dumping lots of fuel out, misfiring. I've checked everything my tired brain can think to check, but I'm out of luck and ideas.

It would probably help lots if I posted a video, hopefully tomorrow.
I was hoping it was just badly fouled plugs or something similarly easy, but I managed to limp it out of the driveway, take it down the street, and get a bit of water/meth flowing through to help clean things out but no improvement. I haven't checked the plugs again, I'm out of time this evening.
I did try and set the timing on the car, but as it won't idle it's impossible to set the base. Managed to get it down to about 1500rpm and the timing was coming back down towards 10 degrees, so I don't think it's horribly out - But again can't know until I can get the car to idle. The CAS was at the end of its' adjustment, which is the only thing that makes me question the alignment of the timing components.

Anyways... Need some help!

Thanks in advance, guys. Appreciated.

[Jason Harwood]

Okay, I usually wouldn't have too much of a problem researching and screwing around until I fix a problem... But I don't have the liberty of time! Moving in eight days and would like to have the car running properly!

Just completed a front case swap - All timing components were off the motor. As far as I know, and as far as I can tell, everything was assembled correctly (Otherwise I wouldn't have put it together!). Did the insertion test to ensure the rear balance shaft was in phase, and all the marks lined up. Checking timing when the car was together, at #1 tdc the cam marks match up and the crank pulley aligns with the mark - That is to say, I don't think the timing is screwed up! Or at least I hope not.

But the car won't run worth a damn. It will not idle or run below 1700ish rpm, just sputters and kills itself. It's dumping lots of fuel out, misfiring. I've checked everything my tired brain can think to check, but I'm out of luck and ideas.

It would probably help lots if I posted a video, hopefully tomorrow.
I was hoping it was just badly fouled plugs or something similarly easy, but I managed to limp it out of the driveway, take it down the street, and get a bit of water/meth flowing through to help clean things out but no improvement. I haven't checked the plugs again, I'm out of time this evening.
I did try and set the timing on the car, but as it won't idle it's impossible to set the base. Managed to get it down to about 1500rpm and the timing was coming back down towards 10 degrees, so I don't think it's horribly out - But again can't know until I can get the car to idle. The CAS was at the end of its' adjustment, which is the only thing that makes me question the alignment of the timing components.

Anyways... Need some help!

Thanks in advance, guys. Appreciated.

No check engine lights?
Do you have a spare CAS to try?
No leaks past the airflow sensor?
Throttle body adjustment screw still there?

[CamWeiss]

No CEL.
I... do have a spare CAS, I can try that.
MAF and BISS all good.

[Jason Harwood]

No CEL.
I... do have a spare CAS, I can try that.
MAF and BISS all good.

Do you have a boost leak tester to try as well?

[Chad Giffen]

IN all honesty Cam, the best probable cause is mostly likely the simplest; your timing.


I always do a TRIPLE check on my timing marks and here is how:

1) Remove the #1 spark pug
2) Stick a screwdriver down there so it rests on the piston head
3) Rotate the crank and watch the timing marks on the cam gears.

As they line up, you will hit a dwell (slight pause) on the screwdriver moving up or down. If there is ANY movement of the screwdriver when the cam marks cross, your screwed.

I always discovered that after re-tension of the t-belt, the teeth would be off by one tooth and run like a bag of shit.


That check always saves me because the crank notch is actually quite big to try an line up.

The check is quick and it only takes 5min even after re-assembly.

[Rob Armstrong]

That's more like a 3 step check than a triple check.
If you did that check 3 times it would be a triple check.
Make sure MAS is pluged in.
That's a I got.
Goodluck.

[KevinBuckham]

IN all honesty Cam, the best probable cause is mostly likely the simplest; your timing.

Agreed.  It's very easy to have the cam gears come out of time if you don't account for the belt tension. It's also easy to be out a few degrees since it's hard to get the visual angle right especially on the crank.

As they line up, you will hit a dwell (slight pause) on the screwdriver moving up or down. If there is ANY movement of the screwdriver when the cam marks cross, your screwed.

I agree completely.  I always use a dial indicator the piston to find exact TDC.  After my first timing belt install this caught my mistake.  (Cams were both one tooth off.)

Also a few more questions for you Cam:
- Did you by chance screw up your plug wiring order?
- Did you remove your injector leads?

[CamWeiss]

Looks like I have a few simple checks to do, otherwise off with the lower cover... again.

Will report back!

[CamWeiss]

mm'k...

Did Chad's test... dwell is dead on when marks cross each other. However, they're not crossing completely flat (see pic).
Mark on the crank pulley shows as maybe 2 deg btdc.

So, looks like I messed it up. Barely.

http://youtu.be/a0KeKX--oD4

[KevinBuckham]

The cams are not lined up in that picture (well they don't appear to be).  They need to be in line with the center of the bolts.  I'd guess you are a tooth off.

Here's my crappy drawing of Cam's cams.



Also I really don't rely on the lower timing cover mark to verify it's at TDC.  When you look from that angle you will be off.  Just use a long 3/8" extension into piston #1 and find the center point where it stops vertical motion.  Find where it stops moving up, and find where it starts moving down and split the difference.  You don't need to use a dial indicator to find it since you can only be off multiples of a tooth. (I think it's 3.5 degrees, but my memory is rusty.)

[Jason Swan]

potentially stupid question - thought nipples were supposed to be up?

[John Hartman]

yep, dowel pins up.

Cam gear marks level with the bottom of the cylinder head.  Center teeth making a level mark, not a shallow "roof" shape like yours.

Its off Cam, one tooth on the exhaust I would bet on.

I've done it and had to correct it.  Never put the covers and belts on tho, so just check it before you button it up.  You are supposed to set it all correctly, let out the tension, check it, (I usually set it one tooth purposefully off on the exhaust cam so that it rolls correct when the tensioner does its thing), then rotate the engine 6 times(on the crank).  Then check it again.  you are supposed to wait 15min and check it again, but I have personally never seen it change in that time if it was done correctly.

PS, your balance shafts will probably be out of time when you rotate the engine 6 times, but thats ok as long as you are sure they were in place previous to that. They have a different ratio in relation to the cams/crank due to thier difference in pully diameter/tooth count.

[CamWeiss]

Okay, looks like I get to try it again.

Thanks, guys!

[Allen fong]

I've seen worst and it still run...and I've also seen perfect and not. but starting and stopping right away has always been in my experience the cam/crank angle sensor and in a 2g there is one of each not sure on a 1g?

[CamWeiss]

CAS is likely not the culprit here, I've had two go bad on me previously and from my experience they either work or they don't.