Author Topic: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter [ISSUE RESOLVED] (am mentally handic  (Read 856 times)

Offline Chad Giffen

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Hey guys.

So about 2 weeks ago, I got this blip in my car where I went to start it and all the lights in the car were fine (bettery full strength), and turned the ignition and nothing. Not even click click click. Fooled around with battery connections, but didn't seem to do anything, but somehow It did manage to start about 5 min later and has driven fine ever since.

Last night I was coming home form work and and I was screwing around in the car. I took some corners super sharp from low speeds and got the back end loose. It was late and no one was around.

Go to start my car this morning and the same thing. Cleaned off all the battery connectors and still nothing when I turn the ignition. Not even click click click.

I checked the ground strap to the tranny and it is secure. I am assuming I have to check the ground behind the starter. The one on the little tab.

Would I be correct in assuming this?

When your starter is pooched, isn't that when you here "click, click, click" but then wont start? (you the solenoid is working from the click click click)


Thx

Chad
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:53:29 pm by Chad Giffen »
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Offline Marke Bailey

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 12:07:40 pm »
tap it with a hammer and try again.
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Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 01:40:29 pm »
Figured it out. Bypassed the starter relay and connected the +12V to the S-spade on the start motor and I can hear the starter realy click, the battery has +12V and no click on the solenoid.

Starter is poooooooched.

$165 at Lordco with the BCDSM discount aint bad.


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Offline John Hartman

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 04:01:25 pm »
is that a reman or a new one?

Also, for future reference and for anyone searching the site, the easiest and simplest way to test a starter is with a test light.

Test light clip end on a good ground(power will light up the tester), touch the main big terminal on the starter.  If it lights, you know, 3 things.  Test light is good, ground for the test light is good and you have good power to the starter at the main wire.

Then move the probe end of the test light(pointy end) to the smaller terminal.  This should not be powered at all now. 

Now, have someone try to crank the engine with the key.  it should now be lit as it would be at the battery itself.  Nice and bright.  Even if the engine does not turn over, this terminal should still be getting power.


Now, you have taken all the guesswork out of testing ANY other part of the system.  Right from the key, the ign cylinder, the ign switch, all the wiring, relays, connections etc all the way down to the starter itself.

So, if you have power at the main one, and power at the small one when the key is in "start" you need a starter.

Oh and another point for reference.  the starter does not have its own ground.  They are grounded by the large bolts holding it to the engine/transmission, depending on the car.
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Offline Dan Harshey

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 04:01:32 pm »
$165 at Lordco with the BCDSM discount aint bad.

I have a used starter here, you could have had it for a lot less than $165.
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Offline Remi Raymond

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 06:32:35 pm »
is that a reman or a new one?

Also, for future reference and for anyone searching the site, the easiest and simplest way to test a starter is with a test light.

Test light clip end on a good ground(power will light up the tester), touch the main big terminal on the starter.  If it lights, you know, 3 things.  Test light is good, ground for the test light is good and you have good power to the starter at the main wire.

Then move the probe end of the test light(pointy end) to the smaller terminal.  This should not be powered at all now.  

Now, have someone try to crank the engine with the key.  it should now be lit as it would be at the battery itself.  Nice and bright.  Even if the engine does not turn over, this terminal should still be getting power.


Now, you have taken all the guesswork out of testing ANY other part of the system.  Right from the key, the ign cylinder, the ign switch, all the wiring, relays, connections etc all the way down to the starter itself.

So, if you have power at the main one, and power at the small one when the key is in "start" you need a starter.

Oh and another point for reference.  the starter does not have its own ground.  They are grounded by the large bolts holding it to the engine/transmission, depending on the car.

 I have a great story about test lights for starters.

 My Mark 2 Jetta has been a tank, so It has been my backup car or daily driver for the last year and a half while I've had various tempermental or problematic cars.. I can always count on it.

 One day it just didn't crank. The symptoms were actually similar to Chad's starter issue but very infrequent. I would take 4-5 trips a day 7 days a week and it would only happen about twice a month. So I would get out and bang on the starter a bit, which worked once or twice but this never really seemed to do anything. Usually I would just push start it (I always parked facing down a ramp) or would take my other car, and the problem wouldn't come back for weeks or even months. I figured it was just a dead spot in the starter at this point.
About 5 months had gone by and one day I was bored enough to bother troubleshooting it. Applied 12v directly and it fired the starter perfectly over and over again, and I couldn't replicate the problem. Spent about 3 hours sitting around having a drink and restarting that poor car about 100 times over the course of a night :)
 I gave up for a few weeks, and then one day I couldn't get it started and wasn't in my usual spot so instead of push starting I ended up running a jumper wire from the battery to the starter and starting it manually.
 
 Now anyone that knows older VW's know that they really only have one "common" trouble spot which is the ignition switches like to go bad. The previous owner had replaced 2 in my car, one just before I bought it so naturally I figured it was likely to be the switch given that the starter never failed with voltage applied manually.

So I did what John mentions - I rigged up a test light. To connect it to the starter I had to take one end of the thick gauge wire and shove it in to the spade connector clip on the top of the starter. After that, it worked all night so I eventually just ran the test light into the cabin so I could wait for it to fail and would immediately know: Ignition switch, or starter.

 Fast forward 8 months later, It has never had the problem again :D Turned out it was just a lose fitment in the signal connector, and the "test light" is still there because it's now know as the test light that kept my car running.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 06:35:31 pm by remi raymond »
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Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 06:34:22 pm »
Well I haven't bought it Dan.

I do fear buying used on this stuff as u just never know when she will go. I got lucky this happened in my driveway and not somewhere where I needed a tow. That would have been 60% of the cost of a starter right there.

How much u want for the used one? I'll mess u later tonight if I get it.

Thx

Chad
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Offline Brett Haviland

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 10:52:52 pm »
the starter went in my 1.6L turbo colt while waiting in line at mission raceway DOH!!

got the stager to help push start me...  and did my pass... left it running for the rest of the night till i got home hahah

Got home, grabbed one of the 5 spare 4g63 starters i had (which are the same as 1.6L ones fortunalty) - as long as they are 5-speed... all the same

anyways its been good now.. no probs at all for like 8 months or something.  used parts!! yayyyyyy
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Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter ***NOT THE STARTER***
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 12:34:31 pm »
So I got a new starter and peed $180 away. LOL Oh well, I know it was getting to the time to replace the starter anyways......


But back to the facts.

Checked the new starter myself by testing it outside of the car and got it to run.

I couldn't get it to run in the car tho (when not hooked up to the flywheel) and starter ground hooked to the neg battery terminal. (the one that hooks to the bell housing)

The battery seems ok. Full 12V with a battery pack to back it up in case the current runs low.

I checked the starter relay and it passed just fine.

Im actually stumped. I beginning to think its a bad ground. Does the starter ground HAVE to be to the block? If so, then im a reatrd and thats it.

WTF!!!!     >:(
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Offline John Hartman

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter ***NOT THE STARTER***
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 01:48:54 pm »
when bench testing its a no load situation.  I have seen almost every starter I replace bench test with no load fine, but when it has an engine to crank over, it fails.

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Offline Dan Harshey

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter ***NOT THE STARTER***
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 02:15:44 pm »
I have seen new and refurbished electrical products fail straight out of the box numerous times.  Not saying thats the problem with yours, but just a heads up.
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Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter ***NOT THE STARTER***
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 02:18:17 pm »
Thx for the fast reply John and Dan.

Ya I was trying it with no load in the car. Just had it sitting on the valve cover confined. Could'nt get it to fire.

But then I pulled it off the car and grounded the housing of the starter and connected to the positive battery terminal and it was fine.

I guess my concern is the ground strap ion the bell housing. I didnt have it on the bell housing when i tried the starter while attached to actual wiring. Rather, I connected the ground strap to the neg battery terminal instaed of the bell housing. I'm thinking this was wrong. (the starter was connected to car wiring harness, but not bolted in place, thus the ground strap had no attachement to the bell housing so I rigged it to the neg battery terminal)

Maybe I should stop being lazy and stuff the whole thingn back in and try it all hooked up.
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Offline John Hartman

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Re: Need a refresher on diagnosing the starter ***NOT THE STARTER***
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 03:21:42 pm »
ahh, with that explanation, yes, your starter has to be firmly and solidly connected to the engine or transmission or body, or run a good strong heavy gauge ground wire to the body of the starter.

When we bench test them, we jumper a battery to the pos post of the starter, the body of the starter and then use a small wire to touch power momentarily to the small pos terminal.

As for the engine ground, if you suspect it, replace it.  Go to a parts place and pick a ground wire that is the correct length.  They will have several positive and negative battery cables pre made.  Or if not, get some good heavy cable and make your own with a couple of large guage ring terminals.
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods

Offline Chad Giffen

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So ya. Lesson learned. Don't be a lazy idiot and try and test a new starter attached to the harness in the car but not bolted in....... and then trying to ground the tranny strap back to the neg battery terminal.  :P ::) :D


It was my starter all along. I didn't pee away $180.

Issue resolved.
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Offline Brett Haviland

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lol hahaha
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