New tires

[Kristopher]

I did a quick search before starting a new thread and thought this one might come in handy for others anyway since there are comments on tires for snow etc.

I'll have to agree with Cam in that the Falken Ziex ze-912 is a bad tire in snow. Actually I'd venture to say it's nearly as shit as a performance summer tire.

Being on a super tight budget and finding my allroad not in good shape for winter driving on bald Falken 912s, I managed to find two brand new 912s on CL for a song. The idea was to run them on the front and use the existing ones in the back. After picking them up I remembered I had two 60% Pirelli P6 "allroads" sitting in my shed. Guys on the forums stated how much they hated these P6s but being on a budget I decided to put the new 912s on the front and the P6s in the rear.

What I just found was the new 912s have LESS traction than the wearing P6s. The allroad's traction control is always intervening, and the ABS works overtime in this weather. I can totally tell it's the fronts causing the issue, no doubt about it.

Aside from they're poor traction in snow (both acceleration, turning, and stopping ability) I don't mind them in the rain or on dry pavement. They're not expensive even though they wear very quickly on this 4200# car.

It's crossed my mind to swap them to the rear so I can get some steering back, but that means tailsliding into parked cars. It makes more sense to cut them and call ICBC.

Happy sledding driving

[John Hartman]

Kris, with a full time awd car, do your absolute best to get completely matching tires on that car as soon as you can afford it.

I have seen 4 tires of the same make and model, same size but 2 worn and 2 new on awd vehicles before.  Took the center diff out of a Safari van and took out the transmission in something else.  I forget.  We no longer will put only two tires on any awd car that comes into our shop even if the customer tells us to.

PS for what its worth, the Michelin X Ice on the Mazdaspeed take it from being absolutely shit in the snow to being better than the AWD Galant with snow tires.  Its really really good now.

[Kristopher]

Thanks John. The plan is to fit the car with proper winter tires when funds permit...this was just a bandaid

Yet the traction control can generally do a good job of slowing the spinning tires (the ones without traction) before the rears begin spinning as the diff locks up. Without traction control the car becomes way too tail happy. Mind you that's more fun! I'm sure the diff is happy enough, there's a 4/32 allowance in radius.

Anyway my comments were just to illustrate the difference in perceived traction between the 'crap' stock tires and the even craptastic Falken 912s

[Remi Raymond]

That is so bizzare kris - I wonder if falken has changed things up in the last 4-5 years with the 912 of if they just can't cope with the extra weight of your car (that wasn't a low blow, your car weighs nearly 1000 lbs more than the car I had the same tires on)

   I say this because about 3 years ago I was in the same boat - only had my white talon and a small budget, they were 140$ something at kal-tire down the street from my house and the winter was approaching.

This was actually that one bad winter we've had recently where it dumped 2 feet in the ubc area and stayed there for a week, and those tires got me everywhere. I was driving around a group of friends to and from work because their cars couldn't get out of parking spots. Every time I would leave my street I would just drive straight out of my parking spot, leaving a nice bare spot behind. I'd get home and that spot would be taken, so I'd just make a new one with the car. I didn't get stuck once that winter.

 Then that same year I put down my quickest 1/4 time on that car and had some fun in the canyons on the same set of tires, and they were great.


 
Amazing how different our experiences are.

[Kristopher]

Yeah Remi, Ryan and Matt both liked their 912s on the DSMs. After this I checked out one of the Audi forums and the general theme is the 912s suck in their opinion also. But I've read the previous model 512s were far better. Perhaps they did change something

The Audi guys also concur with you guys - 60ft times can be sick with the 912s on dry pavement.

[Remi Raymond]

I'd bet they just have a really sharp drop off in traction if they have to much weight on them. For 800$ a set and to be great in snow, rain and even acceleration/handling on a 3000 lbs car, something had to give, they probably have less dynamic range.

I bought the 912 when it had just replaced the 512. (I was originally shopping for the 512) Maybe they did an early change to the compounds.

I will say I picked up a mildly used set of michelin X-ice for the jetta and god damn do these things devour snow. Had some serious fun last night on the way home. Need an lsd...


 

[Kristopher]

Remi I never thought of the weight issue affecting grip...at least not in the sense of comparing vehicle experiences. They carry a 101w load rating which I figured would make them suitable, right? Now I realize that's for tire construction since it's obvious the same tread pattern and materials are employed for grip.

The x-ice are great from what I hear.
I might pick up some Hakk 5's. ($400 for the 4)

And while we're on it - i really rave about the Kumho winters. The I*Zen is nice but nearly $200

[Remi Raymond]

Remi I never thought of the weight issue affecting grip...at least not in the sense of comparing vehicle experiences. They carry a 101w load rating which I figured would make them suitable, right? Now I realize that's for tire construction since it's obvious the same tread pattern and materials are employed for grip.

The x-ice are great from what I hear.
I might pick up some Hakk 5's. ($400 for the 4)

And while we're on it - i really rave about the Kumho winters. The I*Zen is nice but nearly $200

Dunno - not versed in what load rating "really" means. I know it means the tire can support that load, but probably has nothing to do with how it performs under that load - it just won't blow up

[Kristopher]

Yes I doubt it has any coefficient of friction factored into it. Too bad.

Check this,
http://www.revscene.net/forums/winter-tire-you-t556960.html?p=6190549&highlight=falken

[John Hartman]

load rating has more to do with the sidewall construction than anything else.

Usually high performance tires have higher load ratings

but then so do truck tires.

[CamWeiss]

I'll update my opinion on the 912's.

They're great as a dry & wet tire.
They suck large amounts of ass in the snow.

I got a used set of Nokian WR's this winter (like, half dead). They far, far outperform the Falkens even at full tread depth.

I've got a set of 512's on the e30. They've got some camber wear and the rears are pretty badly worn, almost on the wear bars on the inside. They're very poor in the snow and ice as well.

I'd advise anyone with the means to do so to not make the compromise with all seasons. Get a summer tire, and a winter tire. Or an all season and a winter.

I know the treadwear rating does change on the Ziex 912 - I know some sizes are 360, some are 480 - For those not in the know, a lower treadwear generally means a stickier tire, that wears out a bit faster. So Kris, you might have the harder compound. Load rating shouldn't effect grip, although the transitional responses of the tire may change a bit.

[Brett Haviland]

looking at the tread design.... its no wonder they suck in the snow.  I dont see why you expect them to be so great...



they dont have any siping!!  for a tire thats going to be have decent you need some sort of siping, of course this takes away from dry road handling so they dont have it.

to me they look like a tire mostly for dry and wet conditions.
 this is what a good winter tire will look like.



here.. if u want good snow performance...and also good perfomance in the dry/wet..  then GET TWO SETS OF TIRES!!!

[Graeme H Burvill]

If you live in the lower mainland i don't think snow performance should be a big factor in tire choice. I can somewhat understand the all seasons for all the rain down there, personally i would get the cheapest winters as an all season tire and invest in a wicked summer tire.

[Constantin Morosan]

brets second pic is pretty much what i have on my vw and honestly im happy with the performace i snowbaord almost every weekend and  i drove on ice slushy brown crap and a 6-10 inch of snow no problem .. im very happy with them abd the price  was decent .

[Remi Raymond]

looking at the tread design.... its no wonder they suck in the snow.  I dont see why you expect them to be so great...


they dont have any siping!!  for a tire thats going to be have decent you need some sort of siping, of course this takes away from dry road handling so they dont have it.

to me they look like a tire mostly for dry and wet conditions.
 this is what a good winter tire will look like.

here.. if u want good snow performance...and also good perfomance in the dry/wet..  then GET TWO SETS OF TIRES!!!

 Tires 101 by the condescending Brett


 WE KNOW

 We just want it all/are trying to save.

And the fact is there are all-seasons out there that are M&S rated that do quite well in snow.

Plus it's not all about tread design, rubber compound and how it operates at low/freezing temps is equally important until you get into deep snow, and where in vancouver do you get into deep snow unless you go up a mountain anyway.