Stock speaker replacements - ???

[Mark Ergetowski]

Hi,

being semi_electrically_able person I've decided to bite the bullet and ditch the stock stereo-tape deck and stock speakers for something a bit better. I'm not into competition sounds or anything, but a little "thump-thump" would make my daily driving much more enjoyable      

I ended up buying Alpine receiver and two sets of Infinity reference series speakers (5 and 6 in.) for doors and rear. I listened to them in the showroom (Future Shop) and they did sound satisfactory.

So I put the deck in (clean fit), put the speakers in (some drilling/trimming required) connected all that mess and played some tunes.

The result is rather dissapointing      , the top end is quite nice and crisp, but there's absolutely no bass. It even sounded deeper with the stock, lousy, 12 years old Chrysler_made speakers.

For comparison, my w/f's Saturn sounds soooo nice with its stock stereo and four 5" speakers.

If anyone has some suggestions, please advise.

Thanks!!
-mark

[Mike Schmid]

Try playing with the settings on the deck and turn the bass up a bit.  You've probably done that though.  The only real fix is going to be getting a subwoofer...  Then it all depends what you want to do... you'll need an amp and a sub and a box for the sub.  You can get all three combined into one unit or buy them seperately.

You didn't say what you're driving (the 12 year old speakers comment tells me 1G, but not whether FWD or AWD)  In a FWD it's real easy to find room for subs, in an AWD, it's a little more difficult. Right now I'm working on building a box for a 10" sub in my AWD that will take up minimal room and only weigh a few pounds through the use of thin wood with lots of gussets and fiberglass reinforcement.  Will it work?  I dunno, we'll find out.

[Graeme Shaw]

Whats the RMS output of thos speakers you bought?  If you're running them without an amp, just off of the head unit, you're probably running around 20~25 RMS per channel.  Which is bad if your speakers are high-powered ones.  My speakers top out (or will...as sooon as I get them installed) at 120W RMS per channel on my fronts.  My amp can supply a total of 731RMS watts total, split 4 ways, taht's around 180W per channel.  If you are running aftermarket speakers, from what I hear, it's a really bad idea to run them wihtout an amp, as the worst thing you can do to them is run them underpowered.  Now, I'm no expert and am only repeating what I've been told, so I'd wait for the experts' thoughts, but that's my first guess.  Not enough power.  And we all know that power is something you can never have enough of

Oh, my speakers are Infinity 6.5" @ 120W, Infinity 6x9 @ 100W, and nameless cheap 1.5" tweeters @ 110W

[Mike Schmid]

Keep in mind overpowering your speakers will trash them in a hurry.  If you have to choose I think you're better off running underpowered.  It's like putting a massive turbo on a stock fuel system vs putting a massive fuel system on a stock turbo.  

But with that said if you can amp all your speakers and just not use the indeck amp you're going to sound alot better too.  I've had my equipment running off the deck and it starts to distort badly at about 28/40 on the volume.  Then when those same speakers and deck are in but running through my external amp they're clear with no distortion I can hear all the way to 40/40 (max volume).  The amplifier built into any deck is pretty hokey as a rule.  It has to be though when you look at the size.  Compare the size of a deck to the size of a 4 channel amp.  Even a small 4 channel amp is way bigger than a deck, and the deck has a 4 channel amp, a CD player and a tuner all built into it.

[Charn Gill]

found that buying 3-way speakers helps alot too. this way the high range tweets and seperate from the deep bass. but its all in one speaker.  its like a 3 in 1   .
i had bought kenwood somethings and they were 120rms, 5x7's i think and i had a kenwood deck. thats all i used and the sound was superb. even at low and high volumes. when I cranked the tunes, the treble(sp?) was undistorted from the bass.

[Travis Merrick]

Yah I swapped out my rears for some Kenwood ones with a urethane surround in them, doesnt sound as deep as the stockers, but remember when manufacturers make these cars they get custom speakers for all the angles in the area that is given, like ohms and what not, so replacing it with something with a BIGGER magnet, different textures of surrounds and what not throw everything off in the avaliable air space (and not much air space to begin with).  My remedy that sorta worked was get a bottle of spray foam and fill in all the cracks, also make a big wall in the back one out of it by stacking the goup.  It helped out alot and is alot more punchier.  But this is the problem with upgraded our speakers, not very much room for bigger magnets, remedy is get a slub and use them 6's or 6x9's for clarity rather than punch.

[Mark Ergetowski]

....My remedy that sorta worked was get a bottle of spray foam and fill in all the cracks,.....

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.... seal all the cracks in speaker housings with foam.

My new head unit is 4x50W, my new speakers are 40 and 50W RMS. The sound starts to get distorted at about 18 out of 40, that's no good.

As far as the deck's settings, I've tried them all, bass center freq's, widths, etc. and there's hardly any difference, there's simply NO bass at all. I do understand that I'll never get awesome hit out of deck's power end, but still, there should be SOMETHING?

Thinking of it, I wonder if I get polarities right.... Haynes book ain't exactly trustworthy source. Would that (wrong polarity) cause the problem described?

Thanks
-mark
'92 N/T FWD

[Marty van den Bosch]

Some general tips and infomation.

Real deck power is less than you may think : 50w x 4 peak = 18watts x 4 at 1khz with <.1% thd = 8 watts x 4 20~20Khz at .01 thd

Speakers : The power handling ratings on speakers are generally just misinformation and useless since there is no universal testing method. (you will find quality speakers are rated lower than cheapo's)

Speakers : It is far easier to destroy a speaker with distortion than it is pure power. ie. a cheap deck/amp running loud will kill 200watt speakers faster than a good 200 watt Rockford amp would kill 30watt quality speakers.  [My front speakers have a lower power handling than the amount of power going to them - they work great]

Speakers : efficiency (for example 93db @ 1w/m) makes a tremendous difference in actual heard power output (every 3db is 2x power) Generally 3 way are more efficient than 2 way and dual cone are even worse.

Speakers : A proper enclosure for  a speaker makes a night and day difference in it's ability to reproduce bass. (check for any openings and seal)

Speakers : If you wire a speaker incorrectly (positive to negative etc..) you will lose alot of bass output and put the speakers out of phase.

I could go on forever, but I won't.   :wink:


With what you mentioned, I would check the following;
a) The speakers are wired correctly to the desk's outputs
b) Make sure you have a good sealed enclosures for both sets of speakers
c) Make sure your desk has a good power lead (from the battery?) and a good solid ground to the chassis. If you are running a high powered deck this help alot.

Options
a) Troubleshoot, and enhance the best you can with suggestions above.
b) Get a good 4 channel amplifier (costly and can be complex solution)
c) Buy a powered sub-box (costly but pretty simple)
d) both a + b  

[Mark Ergetowski]

Some general tips and infomation.

Real deck power : 50w x 4 peak = 18watts x 4 at 1khz with <.1% thd = 8 watts x 4 20~20Khz at .01 thd.......

Thanks Marty et all for the great pointers. I'll check the polarities <sp?>, get good power source - right now I just soldered into the stock wimpy hot wire..... I'll run a dedicated +line from the battery.

Next I'll seal the speaker enclosures and see what happens.

If that doesn't work I guess I'll shop for an amp - but since I'd like to stay away from the subs (we're hockey family and there's lots of equipment to carry around :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh: ) I guess I need four-channel amp "plugged" between the deck and speakers, right?

Thanks
-mark

[John Hartman]

I will add that overpowering is a common misconception.

A speaker actually pulls the signal, the amp does not push it.  The speaker takes all it can, the volume control throttles what the amp can give.  So underpowering is bad.  I didn't believe it either, but there is a guy at work who is the audio head nut job.  He lives for this stuff.  Mostly home theatre but car too.

I will also say that when I got Infinity reference speakers for my car, I was underwhelmed as well, but as soon as I siliconed the stock rear "boxes" it was like night and day!!

Mike will attest that it sounds pretty good at least.  I am running a good 50x4 mosfet deck and soldered, good quality speaker wire.

[Mike Schmid]

Yeah, John, you're car does sound pretty good for being deck power.  I know on my panasonic though it starts distroting badly at 3/4 volume.  My deck is a few years old though too.

[Mark Ergetowski]

.... Mike will attest that it sounds pretty good at least.  I am running a good 50x4 mosfet deck and soldered, good quality speaker wire.

John, so you drive your speakers off of your deck directly - no amp on the way, is that correct? I've got Infinity Reference speakers as well and the whole thing sounds like, uhm, no good. I did seal the rear boxes with expandable foam and it did help a weeny bit but it's still far away from semi-descent. I dunno.

[John Hartman]

yep, just off the deck.  Its a Panasonic, but its a good one.  It is one that their $1000 unit shares the sound parts with.  It just has less toys.

Expandable foam might not seal properly.  I used silicone caulking.  Lots of it, and let it cure over nite.

Also I soldered all the wires, no twisiting and taping or butt connectors.  And one solid piece of wire from the deck to the speaker, no splices, terminals etc.

[Mark Ergetowski]

I'm still working on it, but I though I post an update on this proj:

- I've managed to install 6x9's (cheap ones, 300W peak) in the rear enclosures. It was tight, but nothing stands a chance against an angle grinder and ball-pen hammer  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

- I installed an amp (again, cheap 2x300W peak, bridgeable) behind the rear pass. seat

- The amp is driving rear speakers for now. It's setup for bass only (it came with built-in adjust. crossover) and it does provide a small "thump", yeeeee....

- I'm planning to build and install an "enclosure" for a 12" sub in the spare tire well (I hope I don't get no flats anytime soon). Once this is done, I'll use the amp to drive the sub, and front/rear speakers will get switched back to the deck. If that's no good, I'll get really :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil: