Timing Belt question

[Andrew Steele]

Ok, so here's the story.

Been dealing with a stuttering problem lately, and decided to get new plugs and wires.  Problem was with the plugs, they were gapped wrong, cyl2 had it's plug-washer missing and the plug wire boot was very discoloured.  cyl3 had cyl2's plug-washer along with it's own plug-washer.  My guess, the idiot who had the car before me didn't know much of what he was doing, or the mechanic he took it to was an ex-ford mechanic.  So, easy fix.

Problem 1:
While I was there, I thought I'd look at my timing belt, having never taken a look at mine since buying it - I figured this was a wise thing to do. I took a look at the cam gears to find the timing marks.  Can you immagine my surprise when I see them pointing nearly in opposite directions???

Here's a very crude reference...

(Image borrowed from http://www.dsm.org/tsbs/tbelt/tbelt.htm)

So, that alarmed me ... my car still runs; runs well from what I can tell.

So that's problem 1

Here's problem 2... the belt itself (between the intake cam and the exhaust cam) is loose. As in, I can move the belt up and down a good inch.  My initial fear was "oh crap, my tensioner is blown and I've skipped a tooth (or will skip a tooth)".  Then I thought to myself, if my timing is still ok ... and I haven't skipped a tooth, then the tension between the two cam gears would have no bearing on the presence of a tensioner or not, because the tension would be between the tensioner pulley and the pulley before and after it (crank-shaft sprocket & exhaust cam sprocket), right?

So, I know I should have it looked at ... most likely by Lowell.  What I don't know, is if the current condition of the belt (no, not cracked - actually feels in nice condition - but I think it's a cheap belt, very soft and I have lots of belt-dust buildup in the cover) and the timing oddities are severe enough that I shouldn't drive the car and should have a timing belt job done asap or whether it's more like the guy who did the last belt job was another ex-ford mechanic and didn't know a sprocket from his own asshole but got it running ok.

Comments, advise, suggestions, donations are all happily welcomed

-Andrew

[Scott Girvin]

From what Lowell told me was that the belt will be loose with the car off. There is no oil pressure to the tensioner with the car off and this creates slack in the belt. Run the car for a couple of minutes and then check the belt sortly after. Hope this helps ya.

[Jeremy Clarke]

Very first thing I would do is check out all the marks. yes this means a good hour of work taking off the cover. You could just leave it on and line up the crank and cams only though. Follow the VFAQ to find TDC. Take off tire and two 12mm spashguard bolts. Then rotate crank clockwise until the crank mark and oil pump mark both line up and the cam sprocket dowel pins are (I guess in your case) somwhat at 12:00 o-clock. THen use a ruler to line up all four cam marks. If your belt has slack even while your turning the crank then I would say you have a problem. If all marks won't line up after turning more than 6 full turns then you have a problem.

The picture you made looks pretty bad but until you can see all four marks and put a ruler on them your eyes may trick you. and until you find TDC on #1 you wont know which one is off.

You could always try the old mechanics trick of putting a screwdriver down #1 plug hole. Then turn the crank slowly with your breaker bar. the piston will push the driver almost all the way out at TDC and if it's the compression stroke your cam dowel pins will be up.

If you were closer I would just come take a look. After doing two back to back belt jobs I'm starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. :laugh: I hope this helps. I know I have thrown a bunch of mixed ideas at you but hey it's late... ZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Mike Schmid]

Here goes...

As mentioned... there's are two marks on each sprocket, why, I don't know, but there are, only two are timing marks though.  The timing marks are supposed to meet in the middle roughly at the level of the top of the lower timing cover, more specifically at the line drawn between the cam's centerpoints.  In the picture your timing marks would be so far off that the cams would be rotated 180 degrees and if it still runs that's not your problem.  I think what you're seeing is one timing mark and one not timing mark, so it's all good     It wouldn't hurt to turn it over a little by hand though and make sure the actual timing marks line up perfect.  If you take a plug out of the #1 hole you can drop a long dowel in there, and watch it move up and down as you hand crank the motor because you're supposed to check timing at cyl 1 TDC.  IIRC the two non timing marks never quite line up right so don't let that alarm you.  

As mentioned to check all the timing marks you'd need to pull the whole front end of the motor apart.  It's a pain... frankly, I found it easier to drop the tranny out quick and pull the motor.  How many miles on your belt too?  The other thing with the tension is when you do a timing belt you'll find the cams will naturally roll away from where they belong because of the cam lobes resting off center on valves.  So that could be what's causing your slack.  If they're in a position where they roll together it'll make the whole bottom of the belt which you can't see nice and taught and the top will go slack between the sprockets.  

This would be my advice:  jack the driver's corner up and pull the wheel.  Throw a big ol' rachet or breaker bar on the crank pulley and have a friend rotate the engine over slowly (it's easier with the plugs out) while you watch the timing marks.  Find where cylinder 1 is at TDC and the timing marks line up.  Also, periodically give the belt a wiggle to see if the tension varies depending on where the motor is at.  If you find that the cams are lined up and the belt tension varies from taught to loose, then leave it at that.  If the cams are off by more than a tooth, and even if they're off by a tooth the car should run like ass, and if it runs okay then your stuttering is probably something else.  If you're still a little worried about it though after doing that I'd suggest taking it to Lowell or something just so you can get some piece of mind and not worry about every little noise and stumble being the cams skipping and the engine getting ready to grenade itself  

[Ryan Lore]

Scott, there is no oil feed to the tensioneer, it is a single self filled unit bolted to the block. think of it as a mini hatch strut.

The multiple marks on each gear are because either gear can be used on either cam and the timing will still be right (minimize mfg costs)

The inside (middle) marks need to line up and the outside ones both need to be above (3ish mm) the imaginary horizontal center line of the timing marks.

[Jeff Armstrong]

When we compared his belt to my n/t belt there was an obvious difference in tension.  Mine could not be pushed down at all and his could almost be lifted off the gears completely, both cars had been sitting for over a half hour.  My belt cover also did not have any belt residue built up.  

Could this be a bad timing belt job coupled with a non-mitsu belt?

[Jeremy Clarke]

It may not be a bad timing job or non-mitsu belt but It definately sounds like a belt that needs replacing. Once again from the pic it looks as though it was a skipped tooth problem so you may need a tensioner too. This is exactly what I just did and it cost me $265 for the parts.

Also when I was changing it and the old belt was on I was resting my hand on the belt right between the cams where yours is lose. It stretched really easily and quickly and it was only a 500km old Mitsu belt. I'm glad it was the one coming off or else I'd have been screwed.

Just a lesson for others, not suggesting that is what happened to you Andrew.  
Good luck with your impending belt job.

[Chris Andrews]

Could this be a bad timing belt job coupled with a non-mitsu belt?

I would re-install the belt, following the correct tensioning procedure as outlined in the shop manual.

If the tension remains incorrect, replace the tensioner, and FWIW, the belt too......

[Ryan Coft]

/me blinks

well.. i might be delusional from a lack of sleep last night

but that's what my marks look like too...

hrmmm  :?

[Andrew Steele]

Well, thanks for all the comments guys, it's appreciated.

All suggestions basically point to a belt job and I agree - it needs to be done.

I wasn't aware of the additional markers on the cam sprockets, I'll have to take a look again.  

Thnx again
Andrew

[Jeremy Clarke]

Yeah, there is a lot here so I'll just sum it up.

Turn your crank by hand clockwise until the cam marks meet in the center and the keyways that hold the pullies on are at 12:00 and your crank pully mark is at the TDC line on the timing cover tab. correct timing will have these all happen at the same time but it may take quite a few turns before they all will. If they never do then you have a problem.

You're crank mark may not be easily noticed if the pully is old or dirty but it is a little notch on the retainers where the aux belts run.

[Cole MacDonald]

Andrew,
     I had the same problem a few weeks ago. There was a lot of slack between the cam gears and i could slide the belt back and forth on the intake cam. I have a new belt, tensioner and all pulleys, installed by me. I thought oh great i screwed up, so I pulled everthing apart and everything was still fine. The tensioner was no further out than when i had installed it and the tensioner pulley was still fine too. I rotated the crank by hand and all the marks were still lined up and also the belt was tight again everywhere. I asked my friend about it and he said its just how the cams and everything were sitting. Just to be on the safe side tho, i would pull it apart and check it out at the very least. Its not a hard job really, and once you've done it once, (or twice in my case), its easy. Good luck